Over the weekend I went to the BlogHer 09 conference in Chicago with Clara in tow. While BlogHer has worked hard to create a culture that’s inclusive of moms and children — providing on-site child care, nursing stations, and allowing moms to bring little ones into the sessions — I still felt a little uncomfortable about the idea and asked several times on Twitter if other attendees would be bringing their babies everywhere with them, including the evening parties.
As it turned out, I wasn’t the only one confused. There was an incident with an exclusive, invitation-only party thrown by Nikon that turned out to be at a no-babies-allowed bar. At least one invitee didn’t ask ahead of time whether babies were welcomed, and was “disinvited” to the party when she showed up with her infant.
Now, I’m not going to get into all the ins and outs of whether this was a smart move on Nikon’s part or not. I think you could make a strong argument, as Katie Granju did, that more attention paid to the needs of a percentage of the invitees would have made for a much more successful event. And you could also argue, as Kristen Chase did, that the mom(s) in question really should have asked whether babies were welcome before they accepted the invitation, instead of just assuming they would be.
But in reading the posts and the ensuing comments, it became clear that there’s another issue at hand here: a significant number of people seem offended by the very idea of babies being “out”. Out at parties, out at the movies, out at night, out at a conference…you name the venue and it seems like there’s somebody who believe it’s no place for babies to be. And everybody’s opinions differ: some feel it’s OK for a baby-in-arms to be out at parties but not past a certain time of night; others believe that quiet babies are no big deal at any event but toddlers are another story; and some seem to feel that anywhere adults congregate, children should not. Obviously there’s no one standard social norm here, and I think most of us moms are just trying to gauge each situation as we can, based on our child’s age, disposition and the event at hand.
I’ve spent much of the last 11 years of my life mothering babies, and I believe it’s absolutely necessary to my happiness to be out in the world…whether with my kids or without. Thing is, it’s not always possible for a mom to be out in the world without children, especially when you’re traveling to a strange city, or are on a limited budget, or when you have a tiny baby.
I also think that I have a right to be out in the world with my children. They are small humans, not snakes or dogs. I’ve been glared at while eating dinner at 5 PM on an outside patio at a not-that-fancy restaurant with a small, quiet baby. Maybe the glaring patrons had had a bad experience while sitting next to a mom and a baby before. On the other hand, I was at a restaurant once where a boorish middle-aged man ruined my dinner by making loud racist remarks between bites. Would it be fair for me to glare at all middle-aged men I see while eating out?
But while I believe moms have the right to be out in the world — which sometimes means being out in the world with our children — I also believe we have responsibilities. We have to be conscientious about where we take our children, and when, and why, and for how long. We have to consider the needs of the host, the other guests, and our kids.
After reading Steph’s post about bringing her baby to BlogHer, and thinking over the comments I’d read on Kristen’s and Katie’s posts, I spent a little while feeling uncomfortable with my decision to take Clara along to the conference (as well as a handful of the after-hours parties). After all, from reading the comments it’s easy to see that a lot of people thought it was a bad mom move.
After dwelling on it for about 20 minutes, though, I realized I don’t care what those commenters think. I didn’t make the choice lightly. I’d taken into consideration Clara’s needs and disposition and the events I’d be attending, and made sure we had an exit plan in case things didn’t go well. I attended three cocktail parties, and never once shoved Clara in anyone else’s face-I didn’t have to, as most people seemed delighted that she was there. As far as the argument that babies can’t handle flashing lights or a loud atmosphere — has anyone been to a Chuck E Cheese, family wedding, zoo, or house with five kids recently? Babies aren’t as fragile as we seem to think they are. I’m all for keeping life calm for my baby, but a once-in-a-while disruption of her schedule and some extra chaos isn’t going to do her harm. Anyway, once she showed signs of having had enough, we left.
Looking back, I feel I made a responsible and conscientious choice, and while it might not have flown with everyone in the room, I’m personally OK with that. We can’t please everyone all of the time, and while we have to take other people’s feelings into account, that doesn’t mean we have to shrink away entirely in order to avoid possibly facing the judgment of anyone, ever, at any time. (Hint: It’s impossible).
Then again, I’m reminded of the time that I was sitting in a nice restaurant in Chicago—out by myself, sans kids, for the first time in months—and had to listen to a toddler at the table next to mine loudly whining, “Noooooo! Nooooooooo! Noooooooooooooo!” for at least ten minutes. When I glanced over at the parents, they seemed oblivious to the fact that other diners were shifting uncomfortably in their seats and sighing loudly over their $35 plates of Ahi Tuna.
In my opinion, the problem really isn’t babies. It’s clueless adults on both sides of the spectrum. While I think the majority of moms are aware of the effect their kids are having on the general public around us, it only takes one bad experience—a toddler running amok in a fancy restaurant; a relentlessly fussing baby in a movie theater—to give people the impression that not only are all kids loud and obnoxious, but most parents don’t care.
On the other hand, if you’ve done your duty as a conscientious parent — checking with your host, considering your baby’s needs and giving yourself an exit plan — you can relax. It’s not worth feeling vaguely guilty that you’ve violated some social norm that nobody can even agree on.
After all, one of the rules of happy motherhood is making the best choice you can at any given moment, and then moving on with confidence. That applies whether you’re trying to decide how long to breastfeed, whether or not to use time-outs…whether or not to bring your baby into a bar.
Edited to add: And you know what? Even if you look back and realize that bringing your child to X event probably wasn’t the best choice, move on with confidence anyway. We all make mistakes and do things we later realize weren’t such a great idea, and most of us learn from our missteps. The surest way NOT to be a happy mom is to spend too much time worrying about how people who don’t even know us feel about our choices. Besides, unless your baby projectile vomits on somebody else’s $200 blouse, they’ve probably forgotten all about him the minute you’re out of sight, anyway.
I understand both sides of the argument, it comes down to what feels right. In my opinion, I have never taken my children to a bar, nor would I consider taking them as babies to a cocktail party. But would I snub my nose at a mother that felt it was just fine, no I wouldn’t. Tough call really.
Although I do have to say, if it was a nursing mother consuming a “few” alcoholic beverages, I would definitely be uncomfortable.
I was going to write about this as well, because I only felt uncomfortable twice — once when we got pushed and shoved at a party where a few swag-hungry ladies got overzealous and another time when we were in line and I needed to get some snacks and later got accused of “skipping.” Otherwise Jonah received a lot if positive energy and attention. But reading the swirl around the Nikon party I guess many people were secretly judging me for being out with him. Oh well!
I wrote a post about bringing my baby to BlogHer on Chicago Moms Blog last week because so many people had made comments to me about what a bad idea it was to bring my six-month-old with me to the conference.
I think you have it right here with your common sense approach. My baby didn’t bother anyone. I am glad I brought him — but I am also glad I only went for one day and skipped all parties but one. It all worked out just fine. I did what was right for us — and am totally uninterested in what other people think about my choices frankly.
Very well said. Completely aside from what did or didn’t happen at BlogHer (which I didn’t attend), we’re always walking a fine line as moms out in public with our children. There is really no pleasing everyone, so all we can do is our best and that’s got to be good enough.
Babies, and kids, are people too. Sometimes they will act their age. If they’re my kids I do my best to avoid difficult situations and minimize the inconvenience to others, but I could really do without the judgmental comments and glances, thankyouverymuch.
Denise, both nights of BlogHer I drank a couple glasses of wine — well within my tolerance especially when spread out over several hours. The funny part was that I had just gotten my first glass — hadn’t even had more than a sip or two yet — and was walking back over to the seating area with Clara strapped to me, when I stepped down wrong on my heel and my leg twisted a bit. I was wearing wedge-heel shoes that I’m not used to, and one of the straps was too loose, so I lost my footing for a second. As I was righting myself, all I could think was “GREAT-now everybody’s going to think I’m too drunk to be taking care of my baby!” Later, I changed my shoes and was on sure footing the rest of the night.
I think most moms are very cognizant of their alcohol tolerance as well as how it might affect a nursing baby. As it turns out, the biggest danger to my baby was my shoes!
As always, Meagan, I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis of issues.
As a mother, I’ve only felt self-entitled on a few occasions, but most often, I do try to respect others around me and realize that it’s not necessarily a kid’s world.
Sitting in the Burger joint at the bottom floor of the Sheraton, Margot started screaming. They were happy screams mostly because she liked hearing herself echo, but after a few times, I realized that this wasn’t the greatest thing in a restaurant and I took her out.
I also hired a babysitter for Thursday and Friday nights after my mom backed out of watching her. I knew that with her being 9 months (Drew was 6 months at BlogHer), it was going to be impossible for me to do anything, particularly at night with so many non-BlogHer events.
And while it was an expense (a big one), it comes with the territory of having kids, and in this situation, bringing them to BlogHer.
I think that small babies are fine at BlogHer. Older kids running around, screeching, etc. might disrupt the sessions and are probably not appropriate. I’m pretty sure most people would agree that it would be distracting from the panels and disrespectful of others. That’s why childcare if provided.
If a child isn’t distracting (which I think was the case for Margot for most of BlogHer during the day), then I’m all for it.
But I think you have to look at each circumstance and analyze it separately. I just don’t think that it’s fair to expect it to be cool to bring a baby to a cocktail party at a swanky restaurant. Someone’s house – eh, maybe, but I’d still ask first. Dinner and drinks? – again, possibly.
In 2007 at the first “people’s party” of sorts, I had Drew in a carrier covered with a scarf. And I never went IN the bar. I stood outside in the hall (and it was loud) and talked to people. Not just because it was loud, but because it just didn’t seem right or fair to the other customers.
We don’t live in a bubble. Regardless of whether your baby sleeps the entire time and is extremely well behaved, I don’t think kids need to be everywhere.
Had I not found a sitter, I would have been shit out of luck on Friday and I knew it. And I would have been really disappointed. But I think it comes with the territory of parenting.
Interesting, Sandie. Yeah, I have to say I’ve witnessed a lot more bad behavior from adults than little babies.
Caitlin, I’m so sorry you got those comments. From people in real life or online?
I think the point is that MOST moms are very conscientious about these things, but the ones who aren’t ruin it for the rest of us. On the other hand, there are people out there who are just cranky, and would be offended by a sleeping baby at a family restaurant. You just can’t make everyone happy.
Just saw your comment, Kristen. I think that so much of this must be regional. Different places have different kind of expectations and norms and what seems “right” to one person, based on their past experience, can seem totally wrong to somebody else.
I know I’m not a born-and-bred city girl. I grew up in small towns where the restaurants were the bars and the bars were the restaurants. In my family, parties would take place in these restaurant-slash-bars, cocktail parties almost always included children, and it was expected and accepted that kids and partying adults mix, (to a certain extent.)
So I think a lot of this is just that we’re all coming from a different place as far as expectations go. It doesn’t make any of us all right or all wrong, but again, I think if we’re careful to consider other people’s feelings, we can feel OK with whatever we choose. After all, it’s not like I have to grapple with this decision every weekend or anything. (That, now that I think about it, might be a bit of a concern!)
The bigger & more disheartening issue to me has been the reaction I’ve gotten from women & moms online who have been VERY quick to label and caricature myself as well as others who brought babies.
I am a new first-time mom and this was the first event I brought my 11 week old nursing son to & honestly thought it’d be a very supportive environment, but what I’ve found is that people are incredibly two-faced and hyper judgmental. They ooo and aww over my son to my face, and then get online and type how they think I’m a terrible parent for taking him along.
Were mistakes made? Sure. I own my mistake of assuming he would be welcome where I was welcome. I, like a lot of other moms, am doing my best to figure this all out… and would appreciate if other women could extend some graciousness.
I guess it’s a matter of how you see the conference, too. I’m from a professional arena where conferences are a pretty normal way of life (as in at one time it was common for me to go to one a month during the academic year). I opted out of the circus a few years ago and only feel a few twinges of regret when our big annual conference comes around. In that setting, I know people who brought spouses and children, but their children were basically never seen within the context of the conference, but I understand that BlogHer is significantly different. But that’s why this whole discussion is creating some amount of dissonance in my head. My brain sees conference and thinks professional which means, in my world, no kids, but that the same time, BlogHer seems like a really different setting and setup, so I can see why taking, especially young children, is so tempting.
I just can’t imagine doing it. Then again, I can’t imagine doing any conference right now. I’m completely worn out from a trip to the zoo and still staring down hours of grading (which obviously, I’m not doing).
I think each person (mom or dad) has to evaluate the context and decide for her/himself what’s best for both themselves and the child.
I do remember, many years ago, my parents held a dinner party for several work colleagues of my dad’s. I remember their shock when they realized that one of the couples had brought their children. The argument? Well, your kids (meaning my sister and me) were going to be here, so we thought it would be all right. I got the “privilege” of doing an unpaid night of babysitting. Oh, joy.
I’ve thought about this issue for a bit and do understand both sides of the argument. One thing that I also think needs to be addressed is “who am I blogging for?”. Is your blog about your child and coincidentally you get all kinds of free stuff for said child? And bringing said child to a blogging events “pimps” them out even more. Does is become are you more excited to see cute kid or the blogger? How many people who brought there kid said on their blog “you get to meet (insert name of kids)?
Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t that conference built from, to a large degree, people with children? I always assumed people brought their small children to that conference, especially if they’re breastfeeding. Shouldn’t it be a supportive environment, regardless of it being a bar, or a big room that happens to have drinks in it?
I’ve never had issue with people bringing their small babies anywhere-I hardly notice frankly. The key should be the parent acting like an adult, and removing themselves if the child becomes “unruly” (I’m meaning loud, unhappy, not bratish). If you’re supporting a large group of women, many of whom may have their children with them, it may also be prudent to state clearly if they would prefer children not be along. I would expect to see a few babies here and there, and frankly, I wouldn’t much care. But that’s me I suppose.
Good post darlin.
I completely agree with you Meagan – this is one of those situations where there needs to be care and thought and reason on all sides. It’s a little sad to me that attendees at a conference specifically for women would spend time and energy tearing down their fellow conferees. And maybe I’m being idealistic here, but I think our lives as mothers would be so much easier if we women could stop continually questioning the choices and decisions are compatriots make.
I only attended two of the parties and didn’t see any babies that weren’t quiet and happy in their slings or carriages. However I did see adults who grabbed, shoved, and got drunk. I don’t think the assumption should always be that it’s the children who are going to misbehave and disrupt other people’s good time.
(And Clara is an angel!)
It was so fabulous to meet and hug you in person. Your baby is adorable and you should be able to take her anywhere. **Disclaimer- this coming from a woman who wears here doggy in a purse ;P
I didn’t bring a baby, but I hung out with lots of babies at the conference and they didn’t bug me one bit. Now if Chicago hadn’t lifted the smoking ban at bars and restaurants I may have a different opinion… but whatever, bring it on if it seems appropriate and others can just get over themselves.
Thordora, Blogher is NOT BlogMommy.
Here’s a thought, had any of the women who took their children to Blogher thought what it might have been like for any of the ALI community who were/are attending Blogher? To be faced with children at an event that they should have been able to attend without having to deal with an issue that they struggle to deal with everyday?
Mommybloggers need to realise that they don’t own the blogosphere or the world and sometimes, it’s nice to go places that there aren’t children OR babies.
selfmademom
Why do others just have to “get over themselves”? Why do Mom’s have the right to say that to other people. You don’t OWN the world. You brought a child into this world, so what? That doesn’t mean you get to veto everybody elses rights or wishes. YOU chose to have your child, not other people, so why do they have to suffer when YOU decide to take your crying, bored, hungry child places?
The Frugal: the thing is, children are a part of the world. And they ARE a welcome part of BlogHer, by design.
Nobody is saying “mommy bloggers” own anything or run the world. But neither do people who’d rather not see them. All the two groups can do is try to be respectful of each other…which does not necessarily equal leaving a baby at home.
I never said that they WEREN’T a welcome part of BlogHer, I suppose though that I think the organisers of BlogHer should think of ALL their attendees and NOT just the Mommybloggers who want to bring their sprog along.
As for no one is saying Mommy Bloggers own anything or run the world, perhaps you need to expand your horizons and read a few more Mommy Blogs Meagan because there are PLENTY of them out there who actually think they DO.
I guess I don’t understand the point of your comment then. I have read some mommyblogs that make me cringe, and I agree that there is a sense of entitlement on the part of some mommybloggers. But…I like to think I’m not one of them, and I’m certainly not promoting that mentality HERE. So why the hostility?
This seems like a complaint best taken up with the organizers of BlogHer. Maybe there need to be splinter conferences to best address each different group’s needs. (I say that in all sincerity). But until that happens, I’m not sure why anyone should feel bad about doing something that is clearly allowable within the conference’s current rules.
The point of my comment is disagreeing with your post about the entitlement Mom’s feel about taking their children absolutely everywhere they go. No, IMO, babies do NOT belong in a movie theatre. I went the movies yesterday and I can tell you that if there had been a baby there, I would have been asking for my money back because I’ve had babies in movies with me and they NEVER are quiet for the whole movie.
You’re a Mum, sorry a Mom, something you CHOSE to become, so that means you can’t always do what you used to do. You may be happy to take your child to the movies and to restaurants but others who are also attending the same place did not have a say in you deciding to take your sprog with you and may not share your enthusiasm with YOUR sprog invading THEIR space while on an evening out.
But why is there an “invasion” of space? How is my (quiet, content) child intruding on anyone else’s enjoyment of anything, any more than any other person?
NO group of people behaves perfectly all the time. NO group of people is any more entitled to be out and about than any other.
And obviously, I don’t do everything I used to do before I had kids. I don’t go clubbing with my baby strapped to my back or R-rated movies in the evening with a toddler. But there is a huge middle ground here.
Why? Because I don’t NEED to see children EVERYWHERE I go. Why can’t some places just be childfree? Why do I have to be reminded everywhere I go of what I’m not able to have? Yes I’m an IF and no I don’t need to see children everywhere.
You say it’s YOUR right to take your quiet and content child places, well where are my rights not to have to live my nightmare everyday of constantly being reminded that I can’t have children? We bend over backwards to accommodate Mom’s in this world and don’t want to offend them but what about other groups?
One more comment, and then I’m disengaging. The Frugal, I can’t imagine being in your position (obviously) and can feel compassion for your constantly being reminded of something you desperately want. But your hostility here, in my space, is really uncalled for and irrational.
The fact is that there are places you can go where children are not. For example, the party that started this whole discussion was a bar that did not allow children. There are plenty of those. There are bed and breakfasts & inns that don’t allow children, live theatres and music venues that don’t allow children, weddings that don’t allow children, and many other examples.
If you don’t want to be reminded of children everywhere you go, you may do well to avoid blogs written by moms, just for starters.
I think the welcoming and accomodating of babies at BlogHer is one of the nicest things I know about it.
But I wonder — what would’ve been the big scandal this year if the anti-babies weren’t vocal? (I think I preferred last years thing where The Bloggess had called Dooce a Hobbit, etc. Much funnier.)
The ONLY reason I’m reading THIS blog is because of the shit kicked up over some one being denied access to a venue that children shouldn’t be in anyway. I found the whole thing very amusing and have only encountered Mommy Blogs in the past 24 hours after the whole shit storm kicked up.
It’s just reinforced my whole belief that God is a funny bugger who really doesn’t give a shit who he lets become a Mum because seriously some of the fanatical, weirdo Mommy Bloggers out there are just downright scary and should never have been allowed to breed.
As for my comments being uncalled for her, I’m replying to YOUR post about where children should and shouldn’t be seen, if you didn’t want comments from across a broad section of the blogosphere, then perhaps you should have turned commenting off…..you put it out there, expect comments that you don’t like nor agree with.
And thanks for your compassion, it just oozes through the screen, no seriously it does…..
Meagan, just wanted to say that I think your original post said it all, and very well, and that as a mom of three boys, I agree. I think we all wish loud-talking Bluetooth d-bags and obnoxious drunks and racists and line-cutters and people who eschew deodorant and _______ (fill in the blank with whatever sets your teeth on edge) weren’t out there in the world.
I think much of this goes down to looking at the people in question: were they at least attempting to be considerate of the feelings of others? I’m sorry but I’m not a mind reader and there is no way I could know that someone is struggling with the indescribable pain of infertility, for example. And I’m not sorry that I will not keep my children at home on the off chance that their very presence out in the world in a public venue might cause someone’s heart to ache. But if my child was colicky and screaming, or throwing a tantrum, or was specifically not welcome at a specific venue, I would not bring him. It’s a big world out there, and we all have a place in it, and I’m kind of shocked to hear that at a conference directed toward WOMEN and often MOTHERS, there’s any flack at all over the presence of children. Now, at an infertility support conference, I’d say that’s a different story.
The Frugal, your perspective and opinion are welcome. Your hostility and name-calling are not.
My son is almost 4, and if I’d been at BlogHer, he would not have come with me. Why? Because I know his limitations. (He’s an Aspie, and he has problems with crowds and loud noise.) But I’d have no problems with other people’s children, as long as they were quiiet and well-behaved. (And taken out of earshot if that changed.)
Maybe it is regional, but I do have issues with kids being out past a certain time at night… except for infants. Infants are up every two hours anyways, and I know I ended up walking through Wal-Mart at 2:00am with a colicky baby at least once. But for the fancy BlogHer parties, I would expect the evening events to be child-free. I am going next year (leaving my son home with my husband) and I’m sure that there will be children out in the evening, but if they’re well-behaved, I could restrain myself from giving the evil eye. ?
As for movie theaters… I would be pretty upset to pay the extortionate price of movie tickets today and have the experience ruined by a crying baby. Matinees are a special case, as children are to be expected there, and children are inherently noisy. But at an evening showing? At least around here, you’d better get a babysitter. They used to have special daytime showings around here when babies and small children were welcome, but I’m not sure if they do that anymore.
I think one of the most amazing things about blogher is how inclusive it is – to moms, to women of color, to all kinds of women otherwise marginalized in so many other environments. I am disgusted by the hostility on both sides, and the women who would cast judgment as to Esther’s parenting choices. She is her own best judge of how late her child can stay up and the best environment for him.
But I’m equally put off by the pile-on mentality against a marketer that spent a lot of time and expense to engage with the blogosphere. There was clearly a misunderstanding here and to call for resignations and firings and heads on platters (which should be reserved for far worse PR issues) is an abuse of influence and authority.
We should all think twice before what words we put out there.
The Frugal, you sound very hurt by the fact you can’t have children. I wish you peace with it.
Christina, I didn’t see any children at the BlogHer parties, just little babies in arms.
And I agree about evening movies, but I’ve done matinees before with a baby where it was just me and the baby in the theater, or me and the baby and two other people. If the movie had been too crowded for me to be able to make a dash for the door if he cried, I’d never have done it. I think MOST moms are conscientious and even hyper-aware of how other people are perceiving them and their kids…it’s just the few here and there that aren’t that give the rest a bad name.
Great post
My opinion is that, no matter what you do or how careful you are to not offend those around you, there will likely always be someone who disapproves of your actions (for a multitude of reasons, which aren’t really relevant to my particular point). My point is, there will ALWAYS be a naysayer out there. Always.
So for me personally, as long as I am following the established rules, and am condcuting myself in a manner that meets the best interest of my kids, my family, friends and collegues, I simply do not care what anyone else might think about my actions or choices.
Sorry I’m still trying to work out who I name called…..
Agreed, Meagan. Like I said, I wasn’t there. Most of us moms are super-conscientious, but we get so much undeserved crap piled on us from a variety of sources – often (sadly) including other moms – I just wish we could all find a way to peacefully coexist.
The Frugal, how about this part:
“…fanatical, weirdo Mommy Bloggers out there are just downright scary and should never have been allowed to breed…”
This completely mystifies me. As a previous commenter stated, I saw FAR more disruptive and inappropriate behavior from grown adult women at BlogHer than from any baby. The few babies that were in session were very quiet, and when they began to make noise, they were taken into the hallway. To suggest that once someone has a baby they need to stay home or just go to a playground or McDonalds is ridiculous. I think a baby is appropriate far more places than not.
It breaks my heart that anyone is being made to feel bad over this topic. For someone to call someone else insensitive for bringing a baby in a way that is hurtful and horribly insensitive is a bit ironic isn’t it?
“fanatical, weirdo Mommy Bloggers”
Sorry, I must have misread you, The Frugal. I thought you were referring to me/my readers there.
I want to be clear that I’m not judging Esther’s choices (Hi Esther – I think you’re lovely and looking way too fabulous to have an 11 week old!). What I am saying is that I don’t think it’s fair to gang up on a PR Firm and company for a decision that I believe was completely fair – which is not something that she did. It seems that other folks have sort of jumped on this.
I actually don’t think it’s wrong to take your kids to a restaurant, or Bowlher, or wherever, but I do think it’s important to check first. And I don’t expect someone to remember to say “no kids allowed.” I think much of the onus is on us as parents to take the initiative and be sure that bringing kids is cool – and if we do, our kids are comfortable in that environment (read: not screaming mouth foaming lunatics).
To paraphrase Mom101 in other discussions, this has less to do with this specific incident and more (which I agree) about using our powerful internet voice. Is this worth shooting poisonous darts at some PR folks and a company? I personally do not think so.
It’s also a bit of “world adapt to me” or “me adapt to world.” I agree that for the most part, most moms are super conscientious. But I think an innocent misunderstanding is just that. No need to make it into an “EPIC FAIL” campaign.
I do agree with you there, Kristen, though I think it’s fair for PR & social media people to discuss what could have been done differently just as we discuss what moms could do differently. Not as a “hear us roar” fail campaign; just because it’s interesting and relevant discussion.
But I do have to ask-how is this different from Johnson & Johnson or (to a lesser extent) Motrin Moms? I ask because I was disgusted by both those “PR fail” twitter/blog campaigns because they seemed intent on Making Someone Pay and seemed way over-the-top, but I felt like a total minority at the time.
Also, I agree that my post is a totally separate issue from what happened at Nikon. But that discussion illuminated that some thought having a baby at BlogHer at all was inappropriate…which was news to me.
This was my first BlogHer event and while I was surprised to see so many babies/toddlers/kids in attendance, I thought it was great. Out of all the sessions I was in, I think I only heard one baby cry but a quick nursing session ended that (not that it bugged me to begin with). I enjoyed seeing all of the babies (especially the ones in wraps, slings, etc) at the conference. The only downside was that they made me miss my kids even more, but that’s *my* problem.
I think you have an excellent point that the issue is the parenting of the baby and not the baby.
Meagan, I was glad to hear that you were taking Clara to BlogHer. I was wondering how you’d manage the social events, and as usual, you seem full of grace. Good for you to stop worrying about what other people thought of you!
I agree 100%.
These are two separate issues. I blogged about the PR snafu on my blog and I do not think it is a “fireable offense” but I do think it was a mistake to not be clear on the invitation and to turn away invited guests.
In regards to the “Twitter Storm” I checked through the tweets and interestingly it seems (to me) to be more of a Twitter Sprinkle. A few people re-tweeting the original message. I couple of NON-Mom Bloggers laughing either at the mistake or at the mom bloggers who were upset. A few chiming in with a middle-road (yes a mistake, but not a huge deal). And then people saying #NikonLovesBabies. Only a handful of Tweets and Twitterers (and only a few of the mom bloggers) seemed to think this was an Epic Fail. So maybe there really wasn’t any mob with pitchforks to begin with.
Back to babies in bars:
I also agree that I think it is to some extent cultural & perhaps sometimes regional.
Young infants, NOT “children,” belong with mom if that’s the way she has chosen to parent. And I don’t see how a classy restaurant/bar is inappropriate or dangerous. Now a roadhouse where fights break out, maybe.
I do generally check to make sure if my young infant (when I had one…now one is a preschooler and the other is almost one and wants to get down and crawl and would NOT be appropriate at a fancy late night party, alcohol or no) is welcome (even at brunches)-but I if you invited me (partially) because I am a mom and then say “no” then I would be at least somewhat surprised.
I am truly sorry that some people find it painful to see children, especially if it is because of an unresolved hurt in their lives, but I do not take that to mean that children shouldn’t be seen.
Ultimately, an infant. One who is not yet crawling. One who will probably sleep in the sling and maybe wake to nurse once. That baby is not going to impinge on anyone’s enjoyment and allowing that infant to come will increase someone else’s enjoyment (the mom’s) by so much. And win lots of positive feelings towards the brand, too.
The law of unintended consequences …
Meagan, you forgot to mention that Esther started the fight when she hashtagged #nikonhatesbabies.
She may have thought it was funny or clever to get back at them because she didn’t like their rules. She “poked the bear” with her snarky tag.
Others thought it was totally inappropriate for her and her righteous mommyblog pals to bash a company who was trying to do something nice. This isn’t Dell Hell or United Breaks Guitars where the company did something to deserve the bash.
Jewels, as I said in my third paragraph, this post really wasn’t about the Nikon thing so much as the question of whether babies belong in “adult” places. Esther has said she was sorry for starting any kind of bashing campaign; I’m taking her at her word, just as I know Nikon meant no harm (though I do think, from a PR perspective, it’s an interesting discussion to have).
The Frugal:
I know this sounds bizarre, but if you’re still reading this, could you email me? I feel like you and I are sort of in the same boat. quedisje AT gmail DOT com
As for the content of this post: I pretty much feel the same way as Esther does. In retrospect, she should’ve checked to make sure the baby was welcome, Nikon should have made it clear that the event was being held at a non-baby venue, and the whole thing was blown completely out of proportion by some people.
(sorry if this is the 2nd time this goes through; my computer froze when I submitted the first time)
I thought it was wonderful that so many women brought their children and husbands. I even decided that next year I am bringing my (gasp) three year old and my husband.
What was disturbing to me was that I saw mothers with infants on the sitting on the floor in sessions because no one offered their seat. Now that is crappy.
I’ll take crying babies over rude adults every time!
I have really mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I want moms with babies to be included. On the other, if I’m without my kids, sometimes I want to go out without other people’s kids. I was never personally bothered by the babies anywhere (even in one session next to the cutest little baby who was feeling fussy) and am glad that BlogHer is a new-mom friendly event.
I try not to judge other parents, but I was deeply disturbed by the presence of infants at the louder parties. The noise level at some of the parties was far beyond a healthy noise level for anyone, much less an infant. My daughter was born with mild hearing loss in one ear and it upsets me that parents aren’t educated about protecting the hearing of their little ones. If you have to shout to be heard and leave with your ears ringing/buzzing, it’s loud enough to do damage. Sure, we all want to have fun, but we also know when we have kids that we’re going to have to make some sacrifices. Skipping a party here or there for the long-term health of our kids doesn’t seem like such a big one to make.
“The problem really isn’t babies. It’s clueless adults on both sides of the spectrum.”
Hear, hear!
On another note, I have never been to BlogHer and I will probably never go. The Angry Mommy Bloggers scare me — if it isn’t Johnson & Johnson, it’s Motrin, or Nikon, or or or … I’ve been on the blogging side, and I’ve also been on the corporate PR side, and while yes, the PR types definitely need to think more about their market, the Angry Mommy Bloggers could also be more understanding.
Ugh. The whole thing upsets me, more than it should. I just can’t wade into those waters!
Hmmmmm…as a mom, I understand being hurt at being turned away simply for bringing your baby to an event…an event where perhaps the company should have thought more about their demographic. On the other hand, I think as moms we have a responsibility to understand that some events are “moms only” and that’s okay.
My husband and I just attended a wedding 2 weeks ago…the invitation was addressed only to us. I knew when I got married, when I addressed the invites to just the parents and didn’t say “and family” I meant just the parents. Many people didn’t listen, and we had a children’s reception for all the kids, which was great. But I knew what I really intended. So we left our 11 month old with the grandparents.
I think it’s perfectly acceptable to have some events be “adults only.” I think it’s important for us as parents to have moments that are “adult only” and leave our kids with family or friends during those times.
I never want to be the parent who people are rolling their eyes about because I’m always showing up to some adult function, dragging my child along.
My daughter is unbelievably well-behaved and slept so much when she was little, and I wore her, that we could take her anywhere and people would barely even notice…still there were some things we chose to stay home from, because we knew it was adults only.
I really think people have a right to say “no kids allowed.” And when that happens, for the most part, I decide to just stay away too, because I’d rather be with my daughter:)
I think in this instance, moms who chose to bring their babies with them to the conference should have perhaps realized that some sacrifices would go along with that…no cocktail parties perhaps? I get that it was a woman’s conference, but it wasn’t a “mommy conference with kids everywhere” so there were going to be events for just grown-ups.
Cara, I absolutely agree that people should be able to make their own rules about who is invited to their events and parties. That’s why I stressed in several places that part of being a conscientious parent is checking with a host first to make sure bringing a baby is OK. And as a mom who did BlogHer with a baby and skipped most of the parties in favor of a small handful that were more baby-friendly, I definitely agree that when you go somewhere with a child, sacrifices must be made.
What I’m talking about here is a general dislike for seeing babies out, even at places they are welcome and specifically allowed to be. I always knew the sentiment was out there, but reading comments at other sites, it became clear that it is a lot more prevalent than I’d originally thought.
Section 10 of the Illinois Breastfeeding law states that a women has the right to have her breastfeeding baby with her wherever she has the legal authority to be. That includes the cocktail party you were invited to. You do not need to ask permission to follow what is your legal right under state laws
It’s not an openly debatable issue anymore, it’s a law that protects women and children from all this back and forth on blogs about this party.
Megan
As we are all seeing on these blog comments, here and on Katie’s blog is that the USA is the mother, and baby and breastfeeding unfriendly country. That is why we needed state laws to give women the right to take our breastfed baby with us out in public.
Our reality is that the USA is all lip service to family values,and children.
Most People like children and mothers in theory only.
After seeing your comment, Megan, at Adventures in Babywearing I came over. As I wrote over there I have brought babies to conferences & left them at home; these were not blogging (I haven’t been to a blogging conference yet) but academic conferences. From my experience it is the minority not the majority that are bothered by babies/children being at these events.
From my perspective, given that this was a conference that in part was to help women who write for a living, I see this as a teaching & learning moment. For everyone to discuss more about the reality that women as mothers are trying to balance career & family, that the private & public spheres are no longer as clear cut, and that as we move forward in today’s culture we will have more areas of business that there are going to be times moms & their children are both present in these types of settings. I’m talking about the conference in general not the bar, although this is also a discussion that should happen when planning events on behalf of outside companies for conference participants.
As for those who are just bothered by children being out in public regardless the location, I’m sorry. Children are part of society & that’s not going to change.
I wasn’t at BlogHer, although I was on twitter & blogs reading about the baby/no-baby debate. Personally, I wouldn’t have taken my baby to BlogHer…but really because I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than juggle my son on an airplane. I took my infant son really everywhere as an infant. I was nursing & he was always in my sling. Granted, I wasn’t attending swanky cocktail parties, just friend & work parties & a few family weddings. (I got babysitters for the few parties that were adult only…I always asked in advance after I didn’t bring my son & the host was upset that she didn’t get to play with my baby.)
Now that my son is TWO, we only attend casual BBQ’s where he can play with other kids. While he was a dreamy, sleeping baby in my sling, he is now a high energy busy boy—we joke that we did not get the mellow child, so now fancy parties or restaurants for us for a while. That being said, I have friends with perfectly mellow toddlers that go with them everywhere and quietly read and play with their cars and never say a peep. They just have different temperaments and energy levels.
Now, occasionally, I plan badly. I take my toddler to a quick errand or whatever that ends up being a 2 hour waiting line, (think DMV where I got stuck last year). And, then I feel like the really insensitive and uncaring mom for subjecting my child to endless boredom and subjecting everyone else in the room with a crazy, loud toddler.
I do like seeing everyone’s thoughts and am always wistful for those days of my uber portable baby.
Sorry to double post, but I agree that there is also a regional aspect & I’d suggest even a cultural/socio-economics aspect too about where babies/children should/shouldn’t go. Similar to a lot of the discussion on what mothering or parenting should look like there is an undercurrent based on our own experiences.
It makes so much sense that this topic was stirred up from the conference (I didn’t go), because there is such a disparity of belief amongst people concerning children.
I was first a little shock that people would think it odd to bring nurslings to a women’s blog conference. I think so much of the skyrocketing ppd we are seeing with mom’s comes from the lack of support. So to have a new babe who you are attempting to stay in a healthy nursing relationship and then be not included in a women’s conference? Doesn’t sound like great support from the larger community.
I went to the Northern Californian Women’s Symposium right after I had my first baby. It was not a traditional conference, but what shocked me was the lack of cattiness and the support I received from the women with no children, older children etc. It was such a relief to go to the bathroom and have a dozen volunteers to hold my baby. They also had children registration so to keep the balance manageable. This mom + kid spots filled up quick.
Segregation only hurts imo, and to start segregating children out of the picture is not a good sign for humanity in general. It’s along the same idea of sticking all the old people in nursing homes. A healthy society embodies a multi-age continuum and balance.
In the case of late night parties, I agree with Meagan, most mom’s are hyper-conscious and are making the decisions that are best of them. Sure we’ve all made mistakes and said, “I’ll never go there again with baby” but spare me the judgement. We also live a flexible family style where celebrations and special events are a great opportunity to stay up late. I wouldn’t take my 4 year old to Blogher for his sake (what the heck would he do?) and I wouldn’t take my 2 year old for your sake (he’d drive everyone-me included nuts), but I would, without a second thought take an infant, in sling, everywhere, even to a late night party with glam and drinks. (Of course I would probably have to leave early with puke all over my party clothes! ;-P)
Beth, I think this part of your comment: “the reality that women as mothers are trying to balance career & family, that the private & public spheres are no longer as clear cut, and that as we move forward in today’s culture we will have more areas of business that there are going to be times moms & their children are both present in these types of settings.”
Is so true. The fact is that we can not expect women to be able to both earn a living AND mother in a way that’s satisfying and good for moms and babies if we expect children to be shuttered away all the time.
A friend of mine commented on Facebook that in the US we seem to like people to be neatly segregated into age groups: 0-3 year olds HERE, 20-40 year olds THERE, etc. We call ourselves a child-centric society but really, we create (safe, sterile, brightly-colored) artificial worlds for children to play and learn and socialize in, and deny them what they really need: to be around adults so they can learn how to be adults.
I really liked what Katie Granju had to say about my post, too, from the perspective of a working mom with children underfoot: http://mamapundit.com/2009/07/its-a-baby-in-a-bar/
I took my baby to BlogHer, and while there were some glares I really didn’t care. We did the Type-A mom party but skipped the huge cocktail thing. Some thought it was crazy, one woman even stopped me to ask if I should have that glass of wine with my baby in tow. But in the end it’s about us, what worked for my baby and what I felt comfortable with.
I agree with you. I think it is up to the mother, and not the crowd, to decide what is appropriate for her and her child. I think a lot of the hoopla about it is hypocritical. Great post.
I would like to add that some mothers do not have the option to hire a sitter. (I have never attended a conference, nor is it likely to ever happen. But I do appear in public with children). I realize this is not typical of the mothers commenting on parenting blogs, but we do exist! Please keep that in mind when you are judging mothers you see about with small children. I am low income and also do not drive. So when I go to the grocery store I have four kids in tow and we don’t have a car to go chill out in if someone gets cranky. I do my best to be considerate of others (don’t go when they’re hungry or tired, continually reminding the kids to keep voices low, move over so someone can pass us, etc.). But reality with young children, particularly more than the socially acceptable one or two kids!, is that sometimes someone melts, sometimes they fight, sometimes they forget their manners. This does not happen only at predictable times. A sitter is not an option for me, and because we walk everywhere I have less control over being able to just walk out if things get a little dicey. If someone’s melting is it better to walk all the way home without the groceries only to have to make the trip out later on? (Ocasionally yes, but most of the time no that would just make everyone more tired and more likely to act out). Not all moms have wonderful support systems, and these Moms are actually MORE LIKELY to need to get out of the house. Lack of support from jobs and our families/friends and judgement from everyone mainly hinders our ability to better care for our families and selves. Maybe the Mom out in the store late at night with her kids is out on the only day she has off from her job, or maybe she works second shift and late night is the only time she can spend with her child so they sleep in together mornings and get the same hours of sleep as a child going to bed earlier? My point is that all women do not have the same circumstances-you can’t assume that choices different than your own are always the result of negligent parenting. Standing there judging the Mom’s decision to have her children out with her doesn’t help you or her, and it feeds that negative judgemental cycle women often get stuck in. Bottom line is that both sides need to be respected and respectful.
OK, finally commenting on this one, I know a little late but I was reading it all from my phone the other night! I think you say it all so eloquently and I especially thank you for your edit there at the bottom. No matter what I’m going to consider what is best for me and baby (as I thought I was) but I need to realize for me this means that I might not do as much, and that is totally ok.
Steph
I’m blown away by the behavior and actions of some of the women who went to blogher. I’ve yet to hear any bad stories of babies pushing other babies out of the way for swag, or not talking to another baby because their blog wasn’t popular enough. Give me a break, people. I would never feel odd that someone brought a baby. I;d love to see that!
Nell
Thank you! My Sentiment Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. It is the adults carrying these babies that are the ones to blame if ever there were a problem. I won’t deny that I am far from an attachment parent. I would never have dreamed to bring a baby or child with me to BlogHer. When I arrived and saw that others had brought their babies though, it didn’t bother me. I loved getting on an elevator with a precious little one, it made my day. I think that the mother (was it you) who showed up at the Nikon party with the baby probably should have asked if the baby was invited. Not expecting them to say no of course, but just as that courtesy.
But my only issues with babies were as you said, more with the parents. I sat through a class with a baby that was fussy. Fussy enough that I had a hard time hearing the speakers because their mics weren’t working well. It took a good 4 minutes for that mother to get up and leave. That doesn’t sound long, but it is.
Just know your audience, that is all I can say.
Lee
Unfortinately, I have to politely disagree with your post. I’m a mid-20’s professional female currently without children (I do make up part of the HER still, regardless of the fact that I’ve chosen not to have children yet). You seem to think it’s a problem that many people do not approve of small babies or children “Out at parties, out at the movies, out at night, out at a conference…” etc. I am one of these people. I don’t. I prefer to spend my adult time with adults, regardless of whether the child in question at a function is specifically offending me. I think this is my choice and right – just as it was another woman’s choice and right to have said child. I think the reverse respect is true. I was once at a child’s birthday party at Chuck-e-Cheese when a group of happy-go-lucky partying-type college-aged kids entered the restaurant. They were promptly denied entry. Was this the appropriate response on the part of the restaurant? Absolutely – the restaurant’s primary goal should be to preserve the happiness and safety of it’s key demographic – children and families. The same holds true for restaurants, bars, and movie theaters. But if we want to state that individuals (and kids) act with a maturity level and behavior requisite to their age and thus are entitled to the same rights to be at parties, movies, restaurants, then these college kids should have had the right to be admitted, correct? They’re just being loud college kids, and weren’t we all college kids once? The fact of the matter is, I am sure there are many wonderful babies out there that might be able to behave through a movie, party, etc, and maybe there are many many mothers out there with the appropriate level of judgement to discern where and when to take their infant, given its disposition and typical behavior – I hope someday I am one – but there are equally as many who can’t and/or choose not to. Maybe it’s unfair that those few spoil it for the rest of mother’s, but you’ll note throughout life there’s always one that ruins it for the group – the one kid on the field trip that gets the class banned from the capital for spitting, the one teenager caught drinking who gets post-prom cancelled for everyone else, the one kid who cheats in college that requires everyone else to submit all their sources for a paper… it’s not fair, but that’s life.
I’ve heard it put that children are in a constant state of movement away from their mothers. ie. from the womb, to the arms, to the floor, up the stairs, and out the door. That first step from the womb to the arms, in my mind, is a very small one, and I tend to think of my breastfeeding newborn as an appendage or extension of my maternal body-therefore, baby goes wherever I go, and I edit my outings as necessary. That said, I’ve been to movies, poetry readings, churches, on airplanes (though never a bar) when each of my five kids were newborns, without issue. And though no one’s given me a hard time about it, I like to think that when people see that the baby is happy and quiet, they can relax. It seems like when baby moves to floor, things get complicated. I’m stressed having him out. He’s stressed to be contained in my arms, and if I have to go someplace that requires a quiet contained baby, I back out, or pump him some milk and leave him at home. Works for me. Works for the kid. I don’t really see what other people would have to complain about.
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